Curse

Malice Black · Jan 11, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Pugging THK for fun? Now kids this is exactly why we want you to say NO to drugs

Lol THK is good fun even with mending wammos and firestorm ele's.

Vinraith · Jan 11, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I've seen the phrase "I don't see the decline of PuGs to be a bad thing" way too many times, and it personally gives me a shudder. PuGs are a very good barometer as to the health of the multiplayer PvE community. In short, the more people you see out there actively attempting to play with other people, the more dynamic the multiplayer PvE experience is. Going into mission towns and seeing very few people attempting to group with others - that is a very good sign that the multiplayer PvE aspect (and community) is dying. And that, IMO, cannot be good for an online game like Guild Wars.

I don't see the decline of PUGs as a bad thing. I've PUGged about five times in the course of playing GW, total. It's not fun, and if I were forced to do it in this game it'd be collecting dust on a shelf (or never have been purchased to begin with) rather than one of my favorite games. PUGs are not a good indicator of the health of the game for that simple reason, actually. This is that rare MMO that one really can just play with friends or alone. It doesn't force MP with strangers down your throat, and that's why a lot of us are playing it. I foresee continuing to play and enjoy the game unless Anet does one of two things:

1) Affects a change that forces me to play with others when I don't wish to. Heroes actually brought me back to the game after a long absence because they made solo and small group high level play a viable option.

2) Affects a change that results in PvE being about account development instead of character development (as so many of the PvP community seem to want).

Until then I, and my small circle of friends, will actively be playing the game. We'll be doing missions, we'll be doing quests, and you won't hear a peep out of us in local chat I can all but guarantee. To put it in the shortest possible terms: Just because people aren't playing with you doesn't mean they aren't playing.

KingKryton · Jan 11, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

i used my heroes and hench all the way through nightfall. out of all the mission the only ones i used real people on and passed were the 2 final missions. i had tried with pugs in earlier mission but they lost everytime. 5 attempts at killing varesh with pugs all failed. first try with heores and hench = win

gene terrodon · Jan 11, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

The biggest cause of dwindling PUGs is the fact that a great percentage of the GW community cannot ascertain the difference between intelligence and obedience.

The most popular reason as to why people say the don't PUG is that "Hero/Hench A.I. is better than human intelligence."

That is a farce. A great number of people in the GW community get upset in PUGs because one or two people in the group does not follow each and every order barked out. These causes resentment and tensions on both ends, until people drop or get kicked or, my favorite, a childish name calling, I'm better than you spat ensues and the group just disbands.
It's not heroes, it's not hench, and it’s not even the spreading of the community over three chapters. It's the attitude of the community and the misnomer that a computer program is smarter than an actual person.

Zinger314 · Jan 11, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

The biggest cause of dwindling PUGs is the fact that a great percentage of the GW community cannot ascertain the difference between intelligence and obedience.

The most popular reason as to why people say the don't PUG is that "Hero/Hench A.I. is better than human intelligence."

That is a farce. A great number of people in the GW community get upset in PUGs because one or two people in the group does not follow each and every order barked out. These causes resentment and tensions on both ends, until people drop or get kicked or, my favorite, a childish name calling, I'm better than you spat ensues and the group just disbands.
It's not heroes, it's not hench, and it’s not even the spreading of the community over three chapters. It's the attitude of the community and the misnomer that a computer program is smarter than an actual person.

Would you call a random R/E who joins your group and only uses Flare a "lack of intelligence" or "lack of obedience?"

explodemyheart · Jan 11, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

That is a farce. A great number of people in the GW community get upset in PUGs because one or two people in the group does not follow each and every order barked out. These causes resentment and tensions on both ends, until people drop or get kicked or, my favorite, a childish name calling, I'm better than you spat ensues and the group just disbands.
It's not heroes, it's not hench, and it’s not even the spreading of the community over three chapters. It's the attitude of the community and the misnomer that a computer program is smarter than an actual person.

I beg to differ. There are many times that even with a set target, my heroes won't attack it and we still manage to fair better than a lot of PUG groups.

The program is smarter than some people. Smarter or not, the AI can play their bars a lot better than some people can. A lot of people don't seem to know their role, they don't seem to understand energy management, they don't seem to understand what are garbage skills.

At least with heroes, I know I don't have to worry that my healing monk has heal other, heal breeze and heal party and does nothing but spam them all (there's a reason I never, ever, EVER use Mhenlo) and then ping that their energy is 3 of 38.

Or that my warrior is constantly throwing mending on himself for a wondrous 2 health regen just to get it shattered repeatedly.

Or that my ele isn't constantly casting firestorm and breath of fire.

Or that my rit isn't screaming "OMFG YOU NEED TO HOLD THEM BACK THEY'RE KILLING MY SPIRITS TOO FAST" when union and displacement die almost before they're put up.

Or look at the male genitalia being repeatedly drawn on my minimap.

Or have my chat box filled with "My health is ___ of ___" and "My energy is ___ of ___" and "I'm wielding something that nobody else cares about".

Success rate of Gate of Madness with PUGs: 1/6
Success rate of Gate of Madness with friends/heroes/hench: 7/8

A recent attempt at Thunderhead with PUGS: 0/4
Got tired of failing, took one other person, had 6 heroes, finished on our first attempt.

Do I need to go on?

I play this game to enjoy myself. I have absolutely no desire to deal with any of the things I've listed above, nor do I have the desire to sit in an outpost for 30 minutes looking for a group, setting up a group, and taking longer than any hero/hench group would have to complete a task.

I can add heroes and henchmen to my party, or take a couple of friends with heroes, and we know that we will do fine because we know what skills do, what skills are good, how to use them and what our jobs are. All this in a matter of a couple of minutes and we do what we need to do faster and more efficiently than most of the PUG groups I could have gotten.

Chicken Ftw · Jan 11, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Guild groups > hench/heroes >>>> PuGs.

I seem to post this a lot. It's true, though. >_>

leprekan · Jan 11, 2007, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

Lol THK is good fun even with mending wammos and firestorm ele's.

LOL,

THK itself is easy ... the pug idea ranks right up there on my list of things to do with .. using my tongue to stop a fan with metal blades

Vinraith · Jan 11, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

Guild groups > hench/heroes >>>> PuGs.

I seem to post this a lot. It's true, though. >_>

Yup. This notion that because people aren't looking for PuG's they either aren't playing or are only playing solo is just silly. I know that of the hundreds of hours I've logged on GW probably 75% or more has been playing with friends and guildies.

Ninna · Jan 11, 2007, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

perhaps mechanisms to help deal with asses/afk'ers etc. could help alleviate some of the negativity?

no perhaps about it

other *team* online games do allow you to boot problem people out of your group

eliminates griefers and idiots

Cebe · Jan 11, 2007, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

[B]I play a Blood Necro and I lost count of the number of times I've been cussed out because I didn't start generating minions immediately. Hey, guys I never said I was a mm and you didn't ask me what my build was.

So so true. Apparently a Necro can ONLY be a minion master, didn't you know?

I was taking my Necro through Kodonur Crossroads. 95% of the time I play curses since Minions are a pain in the arse. When I didn't start raising minions a comedy discussion occured between me and the monk:

Monk: "ZOMG why are you not making minions?"
Me: "I never said I was a Minion Master. I'm playing Curses"
Monk: "But you're not taking advantage of what Necros are good at"
Me: "So the only line of magic is Death then huh? What about Blood and Curses?"
Monk: "But your wasting your potential if you don't be a MM"
Me: "mmhmmm"
Monk: "It's like a Monk not being healing"

...You know where this is going, don't you?....

Later on I was wondering why people were dying so fast. Turns out Tahlkora was our only healer as I happily spammed "<Monk> is using Signet of Mystic Wrath!", "<Monk> is using Bane Signet!", "<Monk> is using Kirin's Wrath!"...

Me: "Wasting potential eh?"

This is the usual reason I for one prefer to play with hench because, humourous as I find the whole situation, when I'm trying to get through a mission...particularly a god-awful annoying one like Kodonur Crossroads...I really don't want morons slowing me down. Don't get me wrong, I would dearly love to be able to play in good PuGs but there are precious few around. One place in Elona where there certainly used to be good PuGs is in the Realm of Torment, particularly in the mission with Shiro and Lich. I got a lot of characters through the game pretty quick and at that point in the game generally good players who could find a way past the "hard" missions such as Rilhon Refuge, The Grand Court of Sebelkeh and The Ruins of Morah were around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Pugging THK for fun? Now kids this is exactly why we want you to say NO to drugs

One mission I do like PuGging is THK. I dunno why but I love this mission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Good PUGs are like Diamonds, rare and precious, when u find one u dont want to let go.

Let me remind you that diamonds are currently useless in Guild Wars

So what you're saying is a good PuG is like an ecto?

Sai of Winter · Jan 11, 2007, 09:37 AM // 09:37

I only play with heroes/hench and guild mates/friends, I pug if I feel like it (meaning if I am desperate) and that rarely happens nowadays. Heroes are a great addition for me.

The reasons why I like using heroes/hench a lot more than pugs is because I find them more reliable and trust what they are doing (same with guild mates and friends). When playing with pugs it takes a long time to find/gather a group (even when pugs are looking for a specific class most of the time) and I really do not know the intent of each individual and not know how they will react in the group during missions, they are a bunch of people I have never met before (hence the term pug). Therefore, I do not want to risk it when joining in pugs. I like to progress through the game at my own pace without being delayed.

Do not get me wrong, I know that not all pugs are bad. Even though I had my fair share of bad groups, I had a decent share of good pugs too. The reasons I use to play in pick up groups before long ago is because I did not know how to use henchmen that well and their AI was terrible back then, and guild mates were not available sometimes. But thank goodness the henchmen's AI got improved overtime and I had more success than real players.

When playing with heroes/hench only most of the time rather than pugging, I am not being an elitist or antisocial...that is just ridiculous. I do not see myself as the greatest player ever, I am pretty average. I do socialize with people even though I am pretty quiet and shy, I do socialize with my guild mates (when I am not afk

) and like meeting with people only when I am hanging out in towns and outposts when I am tired of killings mobs. Therefore, saying a person who only plays with heroes/hench is antisocial and does not like mmo social side is completely false.

If I like playing with only heroes/hench, it is only because I prefer them a lot more than pugs and it is my choice. Do not condemn me for my preference and my choosing. We have always had that option. Do not get angry at someone for not playing with anyone else or not. If you want to pug then that is great, find others who want to do the same as well and you will probably have a good time too, which is great. Just quit trying to force people to pug when they do not want to, please. I really do not like being dictated to how I play. If Anet forced everyone to pug and banned from using heroes/hench/guildies/friends, a lot of people will be turned off by it. It is all a matter preference and respect the person's choosing.

I might be repeating what others have said, but some people are not getting that all of us has the freedom of how we want to play.

Patrick Smit · Jan 11, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanryanryan0310

I love pug groups, it makes the game more intersting. I dislike playing with henchies and hero's, it's freaking boring. Example: You just killed a boss and one party member capps and leave's and then 1 rage quit's. It's fun trying to beat the missions with a handicapp. With hero's and henchies it's all too robotic, there's no excitement.

Personally i find it unaccaptable that players join a group that have a clearly defined goal and decide to cooperate untill their own agenda is met. Capping elites is one of them, but infusion is another which induce these kind of nasty situations. If people disconnect, or leave due real life neccesities, then im fine with that.

I never leave untill it becomes really impossible to my opinion, still i will discuss that with people still around. Lamers and people with their own agenda should be kicked or marked if possible, right in the mission. With a repurtation to loose u will be carefull when joining pugs. Even so what is missing usually in PUGS is that they dont have synergy. In your own heroway u will have synergizing characters. If you want to have that in a PUG u need to discuss in order to have at least an equivalent, otherwise u end up with people using shadow of fear and spitefull spirit at the same time, that is counterproductive, as well as well using necroes and minionmasters. PUGS require discussion, but often people are too much in a hurry. I like pugging, but it should be either on a core of synergizing heroes/players, or there should be discussion in order to make the pug effective. I'm willing to change my build for that or for the purpose of beating the mission, and also expect that from others. You can't beat all missions using arcane echo spitefull spirit, sometimes its good to take other, more effective skills for that purpose

Sophitia Leafblade · Jan 11, 2007, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

they were forced to pug because it was not simply *pretty difficult* it was almost impossible.

remember way back when that the first person who managed to hench a later mission posted screenshots to prove they did the impossible?

Lol are u kidding Henching was always easy (with the exception of the titan missions after defend droks due to the very low lvl Heros and a couple of the Sf missions) i managed to do THK mission and bonus before they even did the upgrade to make Henchies infused there(see previous mentioned story earlier in thread for details.

)

Id rather play with friends or trusted Guildies than anything, but if there not available id far rather use Heros/Henchies than PUG, although i still PUG on occassion if i have plenty of time and arnt really bothered about mission completion or such like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

So what you're saying is a good PuG is like an ecto?

Well almost, a Good PUG is like 'The Ecto', Very rare, to the point where only 1 can exist at the same time throught the gw world

hence why u keep it for as long as as u can.

Well dont worry beaver similar thigns happen to the rest of us, such as when i once PUGed Thirsty river, to help a friend out who likes to PUG, the party leader decided to make the team consist of him (a wammo, a ranger, another wammo, a necro (my friend) and me (as a monk). I repeatly told them i was set as a protector and that we either needed Alesia or another human monk in the party to heal since i wasnt able to heal very much. the words fell on def ears so i equip a couple of protector skills that give some healing. He soon allows a lvl 13 Fire ele to join the team and we enter the mission without being asked if ready, then after a few mins later where all dead after i eventually run out of energy from desperatly trying to keep everyone alive.

The party leader then says: "Wtf are u doing?, why arnt u healing?" to which he is told, "I told u i was a protector, and i cant heal you when im out of energy." he then says " Stupid monk, ur a noob"(clearly not having had noticed the Protector of Tryia Title hanging under my name in town) and leaves, the other Warrior follows suit. So the rest of us try the mission again with Alesia and EvE instead of them and what do u know, one mission and bonus in the bag for my friend.

Patrick Smit · Jan 11, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

@ Sophitia Leafblade: you could have switched to a healer build or a hybrid, the mission would have been possible like that. Depending on the team the mission can be completed with only one monk. I do not want to offend you or whatsover, but u could be a bit more flexible in order to meet the parties needs (amongst which your friend). I don't say the behaviort of the leader is good, its flatout rude, and cause of many people hating pugs. But the take home message here is adapt to the situation.

Ninna · Jan 11, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Personally i find it unaccaptable that players join a group that have a clearly defined goal and decide to cooperate untill their own agenda is met.

before Drakes were nerfed,
I used to dread mission 7, Gates of Kryta, whenever party leader accepted anyone over level 15

people would join *mission* PUGs and then leave the group after Drakes were killed (thats all they cared about)

happened far too often

this was despite claiming they would stay for entire mission ...

Sophitia Leafblade · Jan 11, 2007, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

@ Sophitia Leafblade: you could have switched to a healer build or a hybrid, the mission would have been possible like that. Depending on the team the mission can be completed with only one monk. I do not want to offend you or whatsover, but u could be a bit more flexible in order to meet the parties needs (amongst which your friend). I don't say the behaviort of the leader is good, its flatout rude, and cause of many people hating pugs. But the take home message here is adapt to the situation.

no offence taken

Yes i could have changed i dont deny that, (ignoring the fact i suck at healing while being a reasonably good protector and that at the time i only had 1 set of armour and that included a sup protection rune) but was i ever asked to change? or was i given the change to change my setup? answer = no to both.

The point of the story is : Instead they just assume ur one type in that case a healer and ignore everything u say and then blame u when things dont go as they planned.

ChaoticCoyote · Jan 11, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

What I see here is a lot of people who are quite selfish -- they won;t play MM because they don't like to, or they insist on being a prot when a healer is more appropriate. Such selfish attitudes just prove my earlier point: If all the PuGs you are in "suck", then maybe the common denominator -- *YOU* -- is the problem.

PuGs are about *TEAMWORK*, and being willing to adjust your gameplay to the needs of the group.

When I play my necro, I prefer a Curses build -- but honestly, I'd be a complete jerk if I insisted on going Curses at Vizunah Square (for example). MM is sometime more appropriate, even if it isn't my favorite Necro build.

I *always* ping my build for groups, so there are no surprises in-mission. I find it a common courtesy, so people know what to expect. If they don't like ym build, and I can't agree to what they want, I can leave and find another group.

The worst aspect of PuGs is arrogance -- something all too evident in this thread. Frankly, if you can't get over yourself, PLEASE use heroes and henches. Teamwork is a two-way street.

gene terrodon · Jan 11, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Would you call a random R/E who joins your group and only uses Flare a "lack of intelligence" or "lack of obedience?"

In a word? Yes. How can I say that? What if that random R/E has been doing that his/her entire time of playing, effectively.
You are disagreeing with his/her method, when it has worked for them. You tell them to change it and they wont. That is disobedience and not a lack of intelligence. Furthermore, there are instances where people purposely play junk builds, for the sole purposes of sabotaging a PUG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EXPLODEMYHEART

The program is smarter than some people. Smarter or not, the AI can play their bars a lot better than some people can. A lot of people don't seem to know their role, they don't seem to understand energy management, they don't seem to understand what are garbage skills.

At least with heroes, I know I don't have to worry that my healing monk has heal other, heal breeze and heal party and does nothing but spam them all (there's a reason I never, ever, EVER use Mhenlo) and then ping that their energy is 3 of 38.

Or that my warrior is constantly throwing mending on himself for a wondrous 2 health regen just to get it shattered repeatedly.

Or that my ele isn't constantly casting firestorm and breath of fire.

Or that my rit isn't screaming "OMFG YOU NEED TO HOLD THEM BACK THEY'RE KILLING MY SPIRITS TOO FAST" when union and displacement die almost before they're put up.

You have not proven, in your words, that the A.I. is more intelligent than a human player. You can't, because the A.I. is not. Some people are jerks, but not all. You cannot let the actions of a few taint the entire community.

Some of your examples are of either people who are really new and are learning the game or are just being outright jerks and doing things just to annoy others.

The A.I. doesn't play their bars better than a human - just ask Master of Whispers, who loves to BiP Koss, really, is that smart?

Again, the intonation of your post points to the fact that you do not agree with the skills being brought and their use. Not a lack of intelligence, but a lack of doing what you say and think is right. This basically boils down to a lack of obedience.

TheRaven · Jan 11, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

What I see here is a lot of people who are quite selfish -- they won;t play MM because they don't like to, or they insist on being a prot when a healer is more appropriate. Such selfish attitudes just prove my earlier point: If all the PuGs you are in "suck", then maybe the common denominator -- *YOU* -- is the problem.

Wow!! I disagree 100%. I play a Blood Necro. If I join a PUG I let them know I'm a Blood Necro. You say that I have to be a minion master and you're calling me selfish?

My armor and runes are geared towards blood and I'm extremely familiar and comfortable with the blood skills. I have a few mm skills in my skill bank but I rarely use them and I'm not very good at controlling minions. Sure, I can switch my build to mm because you insist, but I wouldn't call myself a minion master, more like a minion apprentice. I'm just not very good at that build. I'm much more effective with my blood build.

I don't have a problem with a leader politely asking me to change my build to mm, but if I tell him that I'm not a very good mm player then don't tell me that I have to be. If the leader feels that a mm is essential to the mission then kick me and go find one.